tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9200723326040051452.post4374738995846755360..comments2023-10-22T03:44:54.668-05:00Comments on The Catholic Atheist: In Defense of Rowan Williams: Are Brits Secularists, Xenophobics or Both?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9200723326040051452.post-8085561522439884902008-10-30T13:36:00.000-05:002008-10-30T13:36:00.000-05:00Hi, I don't know you guys personally, but I stumbl...Hi, I don't know you guys personally, but I stumbled upon this discussion and -- although Williams's remarks are by now old news -- I thought I might ask for some clarification, particularly with respect to Mark K.'s thoughtful commentary:<BR/><BR/>"Many sociologists and anthropologists have it wrong in claiming this religious element and its institutional offshoots are simply irrational beliefs founded upon arbitrary values."<BR/><BR/>I not an expert (esp. in anthro), but I wonder if this is true. In the thought of the principle founders of sociological theory, religion plays a pivotal role in the emergence of modernity. In the Durkheim of 'The Elementary Forms...', it creates and sustains social solidarity. In Marx --<BR/><BR/>"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. ... The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo."<BR/><BR/>-- religion fulfills a need that is, in his estimation, itself entirely rational. Or maybe what I mean is that, to Marx, religion has a kind of 'truth-value' in that it is an 'opium' that makes it possible for humankind to endure its enslavement within the material world, which, of course, to him was the 'real' world. And I agree with this characterization of Tocqueville and Weber:<BR/><BR/>"Tocqueville (and I think Max Weber to my limited knowledge) claimed that religion was rational to the extent that people had reasons for believing them; religion "made sense" in the United States because it fit its context, it was rational amongst the whole."<BR/><BR/>In a manner similar to Marx, Weber recognized of rationality with respect to the processes that gave rise to religion, as well as to the function it performs. Tocqueville observed the same thing on an anecdotal basis in early America. In his case, religion appears as one in a number of ways in which the 'civilized' east distinguished itself from the 'uncivilized' west. Paradoxically, and in a way that continues in our current society, one aspect of the easterner's 'civilized' self-construction was in fact religious moderation. This was much like the manner in which we Jeffersonians/cosmopolitans think of religion and the state as occupying two separate but autonomous spheres.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps inhabitants of the frontier in Tocqueville's America, leading threadbare existences, would have found the idea of juggling these two separate,autonomous spheres to be alien, or even reprehensible. Much the same as -- if I dare say so -- the contemporary archetype of the exurban or southern Evangelical Christian rejects as oppressive the maintaining of this very separation.<BR/><BR/>(Not saying that all Ev. Chr. actually THINK this way; I'm talking as much about the identities that, for instance, media and politicians IMPOSE upon this population as I am about the realities on the ground.)<BR/><BR/>So, from Tocq's description of the role of religion in the perception of easterners of their own values v. the values of frontiersmen....and also, now that I think about it, in Weber's description of modernity as continual, inexorable conflict among separate, autonomous and competing spheres of value, I'm reminded that the tension between 'secularism' and a more robust religiosity has been around for quite some time.<BR/><BR/>I feel that -- despite the annoying persistence of the 'culture wars' -- perhaps the USA is ultimately better equipped to deal with forging solutions to the tensions between religious doctrine and the state. That's because this country is unique in the world in having been founded in an environment in which consciousness of this very tension was already widespread, and in fact was the reason why many people emigrated from their homes in the first place.cfthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17468588840846310293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9200723326040051452.post-3065839016413312902008-02-19T10:47:00.000-06:002008-02-19T10:47:00.000-06:00Check out this recent article from the NY Times (m...Check out this recent article from the NY Times (maybe you've already seen it but I'm always a little behind on happenings in the English-speaking world): http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/17/weekinreview/17liptak.htmlMark Koesterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05861682097171256854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9200723326040051452.post-48362088369785235522008-02-13T15:10:00.000-06:002008-02-13T15:10:00.000-06:00Tocqueville, a native Frenchman raised on Cartesia...Tocqueville, a native Frenchman raised on Cartesian rationalism, once attempted to investigate and understand why and how the United States had religion as a central component of its democracy--the political system and the social society. Many sociologists and anthropologists have it wrong in claiming this religious element and its institutional offshoots are simply irrational beliefs founded upon arbitrary values. Postmodernists try to claim that every belief of every person has value because there is no such thing as objectivity when it comes to judgments, feelings, and beliefs of value and worth. Tocqueville (and I think Max Weber to my limited knowledge) claimed that religion was rational to the extent that people had reasons for believing them; religion "made sense" in the United States because it fit its context, it was rational amongst the whole. If the Archbishop was saying what he said because he thought all beliefs were relative and impossible to justify universally or objectively, then I think we could claim he's postmodern and his words are a desperate and hopeless search for meaning in the dark. But the Archbishop, in my humble opinion, still retains the idea that beliefs and values are not relative or arbitrary but objectively and universally "recognized" by people as true. This idea of universal or objective recognition of ethical worth is clear when ALL people are put in front of a movie or a play or, in the rare case, in a real-life drama and they react with communal or collective feelings of disgust at the unjust or inspiration at the just and justly. I wouldn't put religion as the sole owner of these objectively universal "collective beliefs" but I would go so far as to welcome the thought of putting values in a pluralistic context where beliefs "make sense" collectively and are rational (and not simply irrationally to the extent that anyone willing to defend their personal idea has a right to a collective defense of that value or belief.).Mark Koesterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05861682097171256854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9200723326040051452.post-20972184940839909432008-02-13T09:26:00.000-06:002008-02-13T09:26:00.000-06:00I see nothing wrong with stoning some poor woman t...I see nothing wrong with stoning some poor woman to death if she is seen with some man in public that is not related to her---at least every once in a while. Strapping bombs on mentally ill woman and directing them to the center of the marketplace? ---No argument here. Shria is clearly the proper conduct in this religion of peace and love and it has many opportunities to demonstrate its superiority and should be considered an alternate in the name of diversity. The only problem I see is how in the world are we to come up with 100 million burka’s and properly train our women in this religion of peace and love? I’m not sure we’re going to get there fast enough using this “incrementalism” but at least the good Archbishop has us off to a good start---it’s extremely important that the lines between right and wrong must be constantly blurred otherwise how will we ever get the true diversity that we deserve?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com